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Saturday, April 2, 2016

Author Interview: Wrath James White


Not Now...Mommy's Screaming has had the pleasure of reading and reviewing several books by author, Wrath James White. Wanting to find out a bit more about "the man behind the monsters" - I asked Wrath if he'd be willing to do an interview and he was more than happy to oblige. I couldn't think of anyone better suited to conduct the interview than his wife, T. I believe fans of Wrath will agree. Enjoy! 



T: Wrath, you used to be a Muay Thai kick boxer. What took you from that profession to writing?

WJW: I always wanted to be a writer. The ability to craft fascinating stories was one of the first talents I was ever acknowledged for as a child. My mother always praised my creativity and tried her best to encourage it. I attended Creative and Performing Arts high School as a Creative Writing major, but then, when I began fighting, I let that dream slip a bit.

I started writing again when I found out I was going to be a father. I wanted to give my son something he could be proud of. I also made a run for a world kickboxing title for the same reason. Then, when I got too old to fight, it made sense to focus all my energy on my writing.



T: Have you always been focused on writing purely horror? Or do you have interests in other genres as well?

WJW: I love horror, but I originally wanted to write Erotica. My first published horror stories were originally erotic tales that I rewrote, amping up the horror elements. I'm still interested in writing erotica, as you can tell from books like 400 Days of Oppression. I'm also a big fan of thrillers. Pure Hate was my foray into the Thriller genre. I will definitely go to that well again in the future. I'm very happy with how that turned out. 

T: From personal experience, I know you're quite the poet as well. What got you interested in poetry?

WJW: I've always been a fan of poetry. I used to do spoken word performances all around Philadelphia, Los Angeles, and San Francisco. I wanted to be the one to make poets rockstars again. I still love laboring over every word, every turn of phrase, every image in a way you can only do in poetry that would feel heavy handed in prose.

T:  Who are your favorite poets? What is it about them that you like?

WJW: I like the dark, angst-ridden, European poets like Baudelaire and Comte de L
autremonte. The way they combine elements of horror, existential philosphy, and almost melodramatic emotion. It's raw and passionate. Sounds a bit like me, doesn't it?

T: I would definitely agree. The movie, 'Come Back to Me' (2014) was based on your book, 'The Resurrectionist'. Would you say that event has changed your perspective on the direction of your career at all?

WJW: Yes. I realized that authors get the worst end of movie adaptations. Screenwriting makes more sense monetarily and in order to retain some modicum of creative control.


T:  What would you say are your 5-year goals for your career?

WJW: I want to be a full-time writer. That's always been my goal since writing my very first novel. 

T: I think your fans and I will be thrilled when that time comes! Have you started working on the type of projects that will get you closer to those goals?

WJW:  Yes. I have begun working on adapting two of my novellas, Voracious and Population Zero, into screenplays. I've also been tossing ideas around with Shane McKenzie for a screenplay with huge marketing potential.



T:  What are some of the other projects you're currently working on?

WJW: One of these days I'm going to finish my novel, Miles of Hell. I've been working on that one for six or seven years. I think my readers will be happy when that one is finally available.

Maurice Broaddus and I are also collaborating on sort of an Urban Fantasy/Thriller called Wrath of God, about a supreme being coming to earth and taking over. I'm hoping we can finish that one by early next year. That's another one that's been half a decade or more in the making.

T: And finally, something a bit more personal. What, about yourself, might fans be surprised to know about you? I know I personally find you to be an enigma on so many levels. At the very least, considering you are from the streets of Philly and a retired fighter, those seem scary, but you are actually such a sweet and caring husband and father. What's another part of yourself you think is something that might be surprising for them to find out about you?

WJW: How romantic and silly I can be would probably be a surprise to many. I think that surprised you when we first started dating. That I used to want to be a stand-up comedian when I was young, and even tried my hand at it a few years back, would probably come as a shock to many of my readers. My writing can be pretty heavy and serious.


T: It did surprise me in the beginning; now though, I just think it's awesome. I think that's about it for now. I appreciate your time today. 



About the Author:

WRATH JAMES WHITE is a former World Class Heavyweight Kickboxer, a professional Kickboxing and Mixed Martial Arts trainer, distance runner, performance artist, and former street brawler, who is now known for creating some of the most disturbing works of fiction in print. 

Wrath is the author of such extreme horror classics as THE RESURRECTIONIST (now a major motion picture titled "Come Back To Me") SUCCULENT PREY, and it's sequel PREY DRIVE, YACCUB'S CURSE, 400 DAYS OF OPPRESSION, POPULATION ZERO, and many others. He is the co-author of TERATOLOGIST co-written with the king of extreme horror, Edward Lee, SOMETHING TERRIBLE co-written with his son Sultan Z. White, ORGY OF SOULS co-written with Maurice Broaddus, HERO and THE KILLINGS both co-written with J.F. Gonzalez, POISONING EROS co-written with Monica J. O'Rourke, among others.


Wednesday, March 9, 2016

Excerpt: White Trash Gothic by Edward Lee



Happy Halloween, Ghouls! I can think of no better way to bring this horror extravaganza to an end than with a teaser by fiction master, Ed Lee. Taken from his latest work in progress, I present to you....

WHITE TRASH GOTHIC 
by Edward Lee


“There was a knock at the door. When Nikoff Raskol opened it, he espied a baleful purview of imprecations, an apophysis of dolorous spiritum–perforce: the Nietzschean Abyss. He’d dreamed of utter blackness, of dripping sounds, and screams, and it was all those things that he found himself looking at beyond the transom of his solitary motel room. The blackness that was somehow fulgent, in which traversed the fallow masses with faces like poultices and acuminated grins. His heart beat in mordant rubato when the gracile hand–certainly that of some outerworldly woman–reached out from the festering clough and took his own. He thought of light’s absence in the flesh, he thought of ataxia undiluted.

Indeed, he thought of lost worlds.
Surely, this curvaceous silhouette of flesh could only be the answer to thirty years of aesthetic query, like Pynchon’s cryptic V., like Burroughs’ Joan--the target of every writer’s most sincere quest: the search for the woman he can never have. Alas, he thought. Here am I, face to face with the Goddess of the New Dark Age, and what a terrifying and joyous thought it was!
The hand tightened about his. He was beseeched by eyes wide and lambent as diminutive moons, but as bottomless as an ocean trench, and the voice resounded as if from the highest precipice of the earth, to offer, “Come. Come with me...and see...”
Nikoff Raskol followed her out of the room into the living dark.”


* * * *
Here, then, is my conundrum. The above page, I’m told, was found in an old manual typewriter, in a fleabag motel, in the mid-‘90s. Evidently I am the author of the page. I am totally upapprized of the motel’s location, nor do I have any idea of what I was doing there.
My name is ______ ___, and I was born on May 25, 19–. This I know only because of my driver’s license. Some time ago a doctor told me that I exhibited chronic symptoms of transient global amnesia, dissociative amnesia, and retrograde amnesia, three types of catastrophic memory deficit that rarely occur together. MRIs revealed no trace of prior cerebral accident or disease mechanism, nor any evidence of a good ole konk on the head. It was actually an interesting affliction: I could recall not one single detail of any aspect of my life, yet I remembered all major world events that had occurred in my lifetime, and I remembered all that I had learned. For instance, I knew that I had attended Harvard and Yale, and studied language, art, philosophy, literature and much else. I remembered the exact layout of Harvard Yard, I remembered Kirkland Street, the Ted Williams Tunnel, Memorial Hall, and the school’s founding date of 1636. Yet I don’t remember being there. I don’t remember a single student or professor. I remember that Tycho Ottesen Brahe was a Danish astronomer of monumental import, and that he died from a ruptured bladder and had a silver nose because he’d lost his real one in a sword fight. I remember that Emanuel Swedenborg began to publish the Daedalus Hyperboreus in1715, and is asserted to have converted lead into gold in 1770 after proving the absolute unity of a Supreme Entity in essence and being. I remember that in 216 B.C. the Carthagenian Army under Hannibal Barca annihilated the largest Roman army yet amassed on the plain of Cannae, killing 75,000 legionnaires in one afternoon.
Yet I don’t remember my parents, friends, nor where I was born.
I don’t remember when exactly any semblance of cognition returned to me. People claiming to be close friends told me I was a speculative novelist of some repute. This undoubtedly was true, for one of them told me I owned a storage locker, the key to which was in my wallet along with my license, credit cards, etc. There was also a small card with the storage facility’s address and the number 154. In this locker, I found all my published books, dozens and dozens of them, all with younger author photos of me in the back. Evidently I’d been quite the existential man, no wife, no kids, and no settled abode. The indication is that for years I’d been a denizen of motels, always seeking out new naturalist locations in which to write. I also had a bank account, with money in it, a considerable sum–royalties, apparently, direct-deposited from publishers. I could relate endlessly of my faltering rediscovery of myself, but that would be inconsequential. I felt driven to discover one single thing: my last location before the onset of my amnesia.
This prospect plagued me. I thought perhaps that the secret must lie in one of my books; therefore, I expended no little time in reading every single one...and not one of them kindled a single memory. (And most of them were stodgy, rather pompous, not altogether interesting, nor altogether coherent, in spite of rave endorsements by the likes of the New York Times Literary Supplement, Chicago Tribune, Atlantic Monthly and scores more.)
How could I be aware of the celebrity of, for instance, the New York Times but not be aware of being reviewed in it, nor of writing the actual book that was reviewed? Mine, truly, was a bizarre malady but also, somehow, a exhilarating one.
It seemed I had nothing to live for in the future because I didn’t know what I’d been living for up to that point. I didn’t know what to do with my life now, after nearly the entirety of it had gone by with my being none the wiser. I thought of Voltaire’s Candide, reckoning the world as a useless terrain of terror and foolishness and emerging from its churning orifi to find himself reborn in a terrain of truth and actualization. I thought of Roquentin in Sartre’s pallid La Nauseé, and I thought of the Pequod’s final voyage.
Nothing mattered, and that realization seemed exciting and scintillant, just as Ahab’s quest for the great white whale must’ve been. A neurologist seemed to take stock in the suspicion that my amnesia must’ve been caused by a severe psychological traumatic shock, something exceedingly horrific, and he finished his speculation by pointing out, “In all likelihood, this trauma was so potent that your memory loss may actually be a blessing.”
A curious deduction, the prospect of which enthused me. Didn’t God appear to Moses as a burning bush because the sight of God’s visage is so intricate, complex, and unreckonable as to cause instant madness? What, then, did I see that could be so catastrophic that my memory would be wiped clean? Not that I suspect I’d glimpsed the unglimpsable face of God, but what of something else more corporeal and rooted in empirical existence?
A murder?
A ghost?
A natural disaster?
To my core I felt it must be beyond things of that ilk, something unmitigated, something too appallingly calamitous to be cogitable. It made sense. Since the resurgence of my self- awareness, my dreams at night were exclusively populated with horrors beyond pondering. They exhibited elements of--
1) The psycho-sexual: twenty-two caliber gun barrel brushes quickly plunged into the urethra’s of throbbing penises; comely women hanging naked by their wrists only to have their epidermis expertly pulled inside-out off their bodies like suits of skin; rustic men cutting holes into women’s skulls, to effect coitus with their still warm, still living brains; screaming pregnant girls gang-raped enmasse until the wares of their wombs were perfunctorily ejected, and men, still more rustic men, calmly copulating with curvaceous headless bodies.
2) The allegorical and the patently absurd: A woman with the physique of a Playboy model rampaging through a kindergarten in a wake of shrieks and flying blood, yet this woman possesses the head of a bull; a teenage girl in trampy garb, evidently watching a screen connected to a closed-circuit camera, suddenly turning with a jerk, and exclaiming, “Mom! He’s putting Gummy Worms in his dick!”; a penis and its accommodating scrotum, six-feet tall and stalking through the woods on human legs.
3) The Luciferic: Things arising from smoke. Pug faces on stout, corded necks. Flesh the hue of riverbed clay, pit-nostrils and chisel slits for eyes. There's a black moon in a red sky, a vale, horrid and vast, refulgent with luminous fog, and a lake of steaming excrement. From fissures in the black rock, the pitiable naked horde is expulsed. A great black grackle flies overhead, its black-marble eyes gazing down in reverent delight. The horde is a mass of screaming bodies, terror incarnate, living chaos. And from the steaming lake, the ushers come to bull into the horde amid suboctave chuckles, their fat hands at once twisting arms and legs quickly out of sockets, wrenching heads off flexing necks, yanking whole spinal columns out of stretched open mouths. Fire gushes in the distance, greasy black smoke pours from cracks and rabbets in the vale's stone face. Stout pinkies calmly squash eyeballs in howling faces; ears, noses, lips, and fingers are bitten off and nibbled as tidbits. Talons swipe to lay open bellies, misshapen fists are thrust into rectums through which innards are extricated like tissue paper from a gift box. The ushers grunt and chuckle, plodding on, popping heads with malformed feet, inhaling blood, holding faces steadfastly down to drown in the tarn of bubbling shit whence they came, all in the name of Satan.
And one more–
4) The monstrous: for no other word can be better suited–yes–a monster, in overalls, with bunched muscles, and seeming to be sucking the feces out of the anus of nude woman with a crushed head. Closer dream-scrutiny suggests that the woman’s brains have been eaten out of the cranium, just as her waste was now being eaten out of her bowels. The monster rubs its crotch in some disconnected excitement; the erection which prints though the overalls is as big as a rolling-pin. When the last of its meal has been sucked down, it looks to the sky with a grin, as if giving thanks to some deity for the bounty of food it has just enjoyed.
Its head is the size of a large watermelon, but warped; one eye huge, the other tiny.
Yes, these were the dreams I experienced nightly, these and further images and scenarios much worse. What could have happened to me in the past, or what could I have seen, that would cause such a tableau atrocities to brew and ferment in my subconscious?
I had nothing else to do than endeavor to find out.
But where to start?

The query took me back to that one sheet of paper found in the typewriter twenty-odd years ago. My inclination was that it was the first page of a novel. I knew now that I was a novelist. Therefore?
I must write the rest of the book.
I sensed with certainty that if I finished the book, my life’s memories would come back to me, and all my questions would be answered. What made me feel this way? I have no conscious clue. Perhaps it was a whisper from the ether, a sign from Dante’s Sisters of the Heavenly Spring. Or perhaps it was just bullshit concocted by an insane mind.
Oh, I forgot to mention one thing. That single page in the typewriter? It had a title at the top: WHITE TRASH GOTHIC.

EDWARD LEE is the author of almost fifty novels and numerous short stories and novellas. Several of his properties have been optioned for film, while Header was released on DVD in 2009; also, he has been published in Germany, England, Romania, Greece, Japan, Russia, France and Austria. Recent releases include Bullet Through Your Face and Brain Cheese Buffet (story collections), Header 2, and the hardcore Lovecraftian books The Innswich Horror, Trolley No. 1852, Pages Torn From A Travel Journal, Going Monstering, andHaunter of the Threshold. You can visit Edward Lee at http://www.edwardleeonline.com/


Guest Post: Sephera Giron


A Simple Halloween Wish
By Sèphera Girón

Samhain is near and I couldn’t be more excited. Not only do I love Halloween, the spooky nights, the masquerades, the jack-o-lanterns but I also love the idea of the veils between worlds being thin enough to hop on a broomstick and go exploring.

October 31st can be a busy day for most people between trick-or-treating, costumes, parties, or working. It can be difficult to find a contemplative moment to explore the beauty of Samhain. The truth is, you can pick an evening close to the 31st that suits your schedule better. You may only need an hour to yourself in a quiet spot for your own little ritual. Samhain is a harvest ritual, a fall into winter ritual, so it’s not super specific that a meditation has to be on the 31st.

You may have a goal: a problem you’re trying to solve, a love you’re trying to find, and so on. Get focused on one idea for your meditation.

You may wish to create a short affirmation or have one created for you by a witch. Affirmations can be very simple: “I give and receive universal unconditional love.”

Or you may wish to create or have created for you, a much longer and more inclusive affirmation, spell, ritual, meditation, or poem to chant while you’re meditating.
You may wish to hold a crystal while you meditate which will charge it with vibrations for the challenges you are facing. You can choose from whatever type suits your purpose.

Quartz: general psychic connection, absorbs negativity
Carnelian: courage, passion
Rose Quartz: giving and receiving of universal unconditional love
Citrine: creativity, money growth
Malachite: money growth
Amethyst: harmony, health
Obsidian: absorb negative energy
Snowflake Obsidian: connecting the pieces of the puzzle of your life
Fluorite: brings order to chaos 
You will want to burn a candle or two. Write your wish on your candle such as “money” “love” “career luck” and so on. You can rub scented oil on it such as rose, High John the Conqueror, or one you already enjoy using. Burn one white candle along with any other color that you choose.


Red: passion, ambition
Pink: love
Green: money
Purple: harmony

Burn your favorite incense.

Say a prayer, call upon the spirit motherfather or whatever system you use, before meditating.

Get comfortable and hold your stone in your fingers.

Close your eyes.

Breathe in through your nose and out through your mouth slowly

Give thanks for all the blessings you have in your life. Give thanks for all of your challenges.

Visualize your goal. Repeat your mantra, affirmation, spell, poem or whatever you choose to call it many times.

Visualize you achieving your goal. How do you feel? What it is like? Is it what you thought it would be?

Let your mind wander. Be at one with the energy of the veil between worlds. Let your body flow through the universe. 

Talk to your ancestors. Visit with your deceased loved ones. 

Enjoy the magnificent energy of Samhain.

Relax into the sensations and experiences.

When you are ready, slowly bring your self back. You may even have set a timer for one hour so that you don’t have to worry about time.

Slowly open your eyes.

Be careful when you stand up again as you may be dizzy.

Give thanks to the spirit motherfather or whoever it was whose help you asked for at the opening of your ritual.

Use a snuffer to extinguish your candles. Never blow them out; not only is it dangerous, it will scatter all the energies you just spent an hour collecting and focusing towards your goal.

You can keep your stone on your altar, dresser, desk, wear it, keep it in a pocket or purse or car.

You may wish to repeat the affirmation you created for your mediation several times a day.

If you want to recharge your stone, you can put on the window sill during a full moon.

You may wish to record your meditation, affirmation, and experiences in a journal. Pay attention to messages from the universe, which may occur in dreams, visions, shadows, “coincidences” and other parts of your life.

If you have any questions or comments about this little Samhain ritual, please feel free to ask in the comments below. I will check back frequently.

Sèphera Girón is the author of A Penny Saved (Samhain 2015), Experiments in Terror (Samhain 2015), Flesh Failure (Samhain 2014), Captured Souls (Samhain 2015), Mistress of the Dark (Leisure), Borrowed Flesh (Leisure), The Birds and the Bees (Leisure) and House of Pain (Leisure). 



Guest Post: Rob E. Boley

How We Shined: A Look Back at the Stanley Hotel Writers Retreat
By Rob E. Boley

 What’s it like spending four nights at one of the world’s most haunted hotels with dozens of horror writers? Turns out, it’s pretty damn amazing.

Last week I traveled to Estes Park, Colorado for the Stanley Hotel Writers Retreat, a five-day immersion in horror writing awesomeness. For those who don’t know, the Stanley Hotel inspired Stephen King to write The Shining and was also featured in the t.v. mini-series adaption of the novel. This hotel has everything: creepy staircases, fascinating history, long dim hallways, and plenty of quaint little nooks. It’s old-school classy but not too stuffy—perfect for a band of writers.

I won’t walk you through each day’s schedule of events (although there’s a link to next year’s event info below), but suffice to say the event’s mastermind, R.J. Cavender, crafted an incredible experience for attendees. Jack freakin’ Ketchum read to us on the outdoor patio. We went bowling with Josh Malerman at a local bowling alley straight out of my childhood. We got to wander in the new hedge maze with Trent Zelazny. We had a lakeside lunch chat on craft with Daniel Knauf.

And let me say this . . . those four writers I just mentioned—Jack, Josh, Trent, and Daniel—were all the epitome of gracious and kind.

But here’s the thing: most everyone who participated in the retreat was friendly, fascinating, and fun. We were an eclectic band of creative souls out to have a good time, forge new friendships, and experience the magic of the Stanley Hotel.

Here’s a fun fact about the Stanley: their t.v.’s have a channel that plays Stanley Kubrick’s The Shining 24-hours-per-day. My buddy Kerry G.S. Lipp and I kept the movie running for most of our visit, so I saw a hell of a lot of that movie several times over. After so many repeat viewings, I realized that 1) Jack is probably the most incompetent killer in movie history; and 2) Wendy is an unparalleled master of stating the obvious. But another realization was prompted by this line from the hotel cook Dick Hallorann (played by Scatman Crothers):

“Some places are like people. Some shine and some don’t.”

This line resonated with me, because I can say without reservation that every writer I talked to at the retreat—be they newbies or bestsellers—all shined. I’m stunned by the array of fascinating people I had the opportunity to meet. A lot of folks probably think that horror writers are these twisted, sick people who enjoy nothing more than scaring the hell out of writers as some horrid act of sadism.

I offer an alternative prospective.

All people have dark thoughts, be they prompted by jealousy, anger, anxiety, or pick-your-difficult-emotion. As horror writers, we’ve found a unique way to tap into these feelings and process them in a healthy, productive way.

But wait, Rob, you may say. I call bullshit. Doesn’t horror fiction just spread those horrible feelings to innocent people? Aren’t you just infecting your readers with your darkness?

Respectfully submitted, no.

At the end of the day, horror fiction isn’t about making readers feel fear, or dread, or tension. It’s about acknowledging that we all have our boogeymen, our ghosts, or our homicidally incompetent (or incompetently homicidal?) off-season caretakers. When readers read a good horror story, sure, they may get scared silly, but they also feel maybe a little less alone—because some other kindred soul out there in the big bad world feels the same way. Writing and reading horror becomes a kind of communal experience that reinforces the idea that we’re all in this big, bad world together.

So, that’s why us horror writers shine every bit as bright as the Stanley Hotel—because in our own demented little way, we serve as a beacon for our readers. We light the way through the darkness that everyone feels but so few are willing to acknowledge.

Speaking of acknowledgements, I have to give mad props to RJ Cavander for organizing a brilliant event and serving as an exceptional host. I can’t even begin to fathom the number of moving parts encompassed in such an affair, but yet RJ handled it all with poise and good humor. We couldn’t have asked for a better host. Likewise, RJ couldn’t have asked for a better event assistant than Kelly Calabrese, who always had a genuine smile, kind words, and a helpful attitude.

A big thank-you goes out to whichever members of the housekeeping staff had to deal with Room 404 after Kerry and I checked out. All I can say is, the three-day-old chicken on the bathroom floor was not our fault (you know who you are).

And then there’s Kerry . . . it is unfathomable to me how two dudes could’ve shared so much time and space together and not have had one single altercation. Yet somehow it happened and we were laughing the whole way home. Thanks, man, for being a kick-ass travel companion.

Kerry and I were also the male component of Operation Clown Car, a gang of five horror writers who shared a Dodge Charger for the duration of the retreat. Staffing the backseat of this misguided endeavor were Cat Marshall, Colleen Anderson, and Sephera Giron. I’d never met any member of this trio prior to the retreat but I am honored now to call them all friends.

Truly, the Stanley Hotel Writers Retreat was a journey that made many memories—some of which I can still recall. But don’t take my word for it. A few of my fellow retreaters were kind enough to offer me some of their favorite moments from the event:

“One of my favorite things was sinking into those big leather chairs in the lobby and enjoying the fire, people watching. Same for the fires outside in the back.” — Deb Finley-Hoag

 “Aside from all the great new friends and the inspiration, the most memorable encounter for me was standing on the first floor landing and feeling something push the back of my leg, causing my knee to bend. It felt like a child playing tag...and I was it.” — Bryan Prince

“Though it means little to anyone else, seeing you (Rob) get shocked by the elevator after a night of partying was one of the funniest things I've ever seen. Hard to pick a favorite moment but meeting Jack Ketchum is up there. Late night walks around to see who was still up and getting into trouble was great too.” — Kerry Lipp

Personally, my favorite moment was during our first night at the Stanley, well after two in the morning. I was prowling the hotel with Kerry and Sephera. We had the run of the place—no other guests, staff, or ghosts to be seen. The three of us ventured outside and wandered the new hedge maze for I-can’t-imagine-how-long, giggling and grinning all the while. The sky and the surrounding mountains were immense. By contrast, the young hedge maze was only about shoulder-high. We played off each other’s jokes and fed off each other’s wit. Our joy was pure and childlike. We shined.

It was a beautifully simple moment, but one that I’ll cherish forever and ever.

And ever. And ever.

 For info on next year’s Stanley Hotel Writers Retreat:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-stanley-hotel-writers-retreat-2016#/


About the Author:
Rob E. Boley grew up in Enon, Ohio, a little town with a big Indian mound. He later earned a B.A. and M.A. in English from Wright State University in Dayton, Ohio.

He’s the author of The Scary Tales series of dark fantasy novels featuring mash-ups of classic fairy tale characters and horror monsters. His fiction has appeared in several markets, including A cappella Zoo, Pseudopod, Clackamas Literary Review, and Best New Werewolf Tales. His stories have won Best in Show in the Sinclair Community College Creative Writing Contest and the Dayton Daily News/Antioch Writers’ Workshop Short Story Contest.

He lives with his daughter in Dayton, where he works for his alma mater. Each morning and most nights, he enjoys making blank pages darker. You can get to know him better by visiting his website at www.robboley.com.


The Werewolf Roundtable


The Werewolf Roundtable 2015
 
Thanks to authors Ray Garton, Jeff Strand, Glenn Rolfe, and Jonathan Janz for joining me – W.D. Gagliani – for this expert werewolf roundtable. It’s exciting to talk to others who share some of my deepest interests! Thanks to our host, Not Now, Mommy’s Reading (Screaming for the month of October) for giving us the space, and thanks to fellow dark fiction scribe John Everson for convening this panel in the first place.

W.D. Gagliani: We have all been drawn to write about werewolves. So far for me, it’s been six novels in the Nick Lupo series (Wolf’s Trap, Wolf’s Gambit, Wolf’s Bluff, Wolf’s Edge, Wolf’s Cut, and the upcoming Wolf’s Blind), three short stories (“Clair de Lune” and “Moonshadow” with David Benton, and “The Christmas Wolf”), and two novellas (“Wolf’s Deal” and “The Great Belzoni and the Gait of Anubis”). Tell us how many it’s been for you, and what drew you to the subject. If it was one work that influenced you, what was it?

Glenn Rolfe: I’ve written Blood and Rain and a short story, “The Beast in Me.” Blood and Rain is was the first serious piece I ever wrote, and it sat around in various forms since August of 2011. I wrote "The Beast in Me" well after and it wound up in Infernal Ink Magazine. It’s about a teen afflicted with the curse in a nearby town of the one I made up for Blood and Rain.

A number of things drew me to werewolves. My big brother LOVED the beast. And like all little brothers, whatever the big one thinks is cool, so do we. Beyond that, I remember being mesmerized by the beginning of Michael Jackson's Thriller music video. Jackson of course worked with John Landis (writer and director of An American Werewolf in London) on the video. That birthed my interest. If I had to name one book, it would be Stephen King’s Cycle of the Werewolf. That got my initial idea for Blood and Rain percolating.
  
WD: What did your brother find cool about a werewolf, Glenn?

 Glenn: I think my brother was angry a lot. I can’t say for sure what it was that attracted him to the werewolf, but is guess it had to do with that. I know he thought it was really fucking cool looking.  
  
WD: Were you a fan of the John Landis movie before finding inspiration in the Thriller video?

 Glenn: Not then. I love American Werewolf in London now, but at that time, we’re talking ’82-’83, I was five or six. I remember my brother would go over our cousin’s house and watch movies all night. A lot of times he would tell me about them. There were two that scared him so much that he wouldn’t let me watch them – The Evil Dead and American Werewolf in London

Jeff Strand: I’ve written two novels (Wolf Hunt and Wolf Hunt 2), one short story (“Werewolf Porno”), and a novelette (“My Werewolf Neighbor,” which is bonus content in the hardcover edition of Wolf Hunt 2). What drew me to the subject was that I’d tackled zombies, vampires, serial killers, giant bugs, and many of the other classic tropes, so I thought it was time to give werewolves a try!
  
WD: Jeff, no deep, dark, repressed wish to have a monster burst out of you and wreak havoc on your enemies?

Jeff: Werewolves are not, in general, the happiest of monsters. If I were going to wreak havoc, I'd want to do it in King Kong form. You can make a case that being a vampire has its benefits, but an uncontrollable man-to-monster transformation every full moon sounds like a very inconvenient lifestyle. When they slaughter their enemies, it tends to be more of a "What have I done? What have I become?" instead of a "Woo-hoo! That rocked!"

WD: What POV did you adopt? Are your werewolves heroes or antagonists? 

Jeff: The Wolf Hunt books are in third person. In the first book, the werewolf is a pure antagonist. The concept with Ivan is that even if he weren't a werewolf, he'd still be a sadistic serial killer. He's really awful. The second book adds a few more lycanthropes, one of whom is a little girl who just can't control her transformations, but overall, the werewolves are the bad guys.
  
Jonathan Janz: Wolf Land is my first werewolf story, though I’ve long been a huge fan of the beast. I remember watching Silver BulletThe Howling, and An American Werewolf in London when I was a kid, and those films really stuck with me. There’s something so...unchained about the werewolf, something so primal and unpredictable that you can imagine how horrifying it would be to watch a werewolf change. And I think those were the scenes that influenced me as a kid – the transformation scenes. You know what’s coming, you know what the end result of the change will be, yet you’re so transfixed and horrified by the human’s grisly alterations that you’re too terrified to flee. I remember the scene in The Howling when we see the werewolf change in some sort of office. In Silver Bullet, we watch Everett McGill say, “But it’s not my fault!” as he starts to change. Man, that scared me to death. So...while I really got into werewolf novels in my twenties, it was those early film experiences that set the stage for me. 

WD: Those movies all worked for me, too. Wolfen is another. Even though it’s not technically a werewolf movie, it has the right vibe and the effects are cool. Plus it was an urban setting, which was different.

WD: We all acknowledge Ray Garton is the superstar here. What about you, Ray?

 Ray Garton: I've written two werewolf novels, Ravenous and the sequel Bestial. Years ago, I wrote a novella called “Monsters” in which the word "werewolf" is never used, but the tortured man in the story turns into a "monster" that might as well be a werewolf.
  
WD: In your novels, you took a different road from most other writers of werewolf fiction. It struck me that, as the author of the ground-breaking Live Girls, you really did bring something a little different to the table here, too. Describe what led you to handle the subject as you did.

Ray: Live Girls linked vampires and sex and the sex industry. I wanted to do the something like that with werewolves, but the werewolf does not have the romantic cachet enjoyed by the vampire. Vampires have always been sexy, Bram Stoker wrote a very naughty book. But we just don't have that kind of association with werewolves, and they're so violent and tortured and, well, hairy that it's difficult to create one. I decided that erotic would not work with an honestly traditional werewolf and decided instead to go in the opposite direction: I made lycanthropy a sexually transmitted disease. I think Ravenous is a much more unpleasant book than Live Girls.

WD: It was a great idea! Wish I’d thought of it, lol! Thing is, Live Girls was THE novel in the 80s that steered me toward the so-called “splatterpunks” (like or hate the label) and influenced me by making me aware that I could bring some nasty sexual elements into my horror. King had taught me that vampires could live in my small town, and you taught me they could find me at a peep show in Times Square (among other things). That was cool! My first novel Wolf’s Trap is quite a bit nastier than it might have been thanks to you. What about your influences?

Ray: I think I was most influenced by the 1941 Universal
Studios movie The Wolf Man, and also by the earlier Universal movie Werewolf of London. They were also what initially drew me to the subject. The werewolf was probably my favorite monster as a boy, and I always thought the creature was sadly under-represented in horror movies. That's what made 1981 such a fantastic year – two great werewolf movies back to back, The Howling and An American Werewolf in London.

WD: The Wolf Man was a huge influence on me, too. It really scared me at about age ten. Ironically it was also Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein that both scared and entertained me shortly thereafter. I felt drawn to the tragic Larry Talbot figure, a true anti-hero, a prisoner of his own monster. Talk about why you thought the werewolf was your favorite.

Ray: I think the werewolf first became my favorite monster because of Jack Pierce, who created the makeup. One of the initial draws to horror movies for me were the makeups and effects, and that was one of the best when I was a kid. Think of that, by the time I started watching monster movies 20-something years later, those effects and makeups were still the best. But even as a kid, I was fascinated by the story, and that fascination grew with time. It's the human condition but with more hair. In one way or another, we are all our own worst enemies.

WD: Absolutely – the beast within! The dark side all humans have. Where does evil comes from? I believe from inside. We all have a beast waiting to burst out, figuratively if not literally. Werewolves allow us to explore the idea metaphorically.

WD: Can anyone weigh in on the sexy werewolf? Ray brought it up (as in it's not). It's funny, I agree that it's not as sexy as the vampire has become, but then some years ago I found myself staring at all these covers of paranormal romances and urban fantasy books with sexy wolves... I’ve since learned that many people find werewolves (and all shapeshifters) sexy! I tapped into that unconsciously early on, and later maybe quite a bit more consciously. But I tried to keep the basic savagery of a true werewolf also in my books. How do you feel about that particular image? Are we in danger of romanticizing our monster? Or is that a logical direction?
 
Jonathan: That’s a question I’d never considered before, but now that I think about it...well, I guess the element of danger in that character...the air of the forbidden or the knowledge of the power brewing inside that character...I think that could be sexy to other characters and readers alike. In Wolf Land, one of the female characters (who has also been bitten but who hasn’t yet changed) is powerfully attracted to a male character who has been bitten and who has already changed. It’s the allure of the unknown, the notion that he possesses an unfathomable power that attracts her to him. So I can imagine the unchanged werewolf being attractive to both characters and readers. But when the change takes hold, there’s nothing remotely sexy about it, unless berserk carnage, flying body parts, and spraying arterial blood is sexy to you. Who knows? For some, perhaps it is!

Glenn: There can be a set side of the wolf, but it’s that primal vibe. It’s that raw lust. It’s never going to be pretty and loving. It can’t be. The Beast isn’t capable. Even (your character) Nick Lupo, even in his attempts at love, when it comes to sex, the primal power steps in and is there. It doesn’t mean they’re incapable of love, but it makes gentle love making impossible. I feel like humans are attracted to that raw power. So it is understandable. Hell, Elisabeth Brooks in The Howling. If she doesn’t get your motor running... damn. So there is a place, but as a Horror writer, I still prefer the viscous beast over the set one.

WD: Ray’s novels present lycanthropy as an STD -- a brilliant move! How do you guys feel about sexualizing the werewolf? What lines would you not cross, if there are any?

Glenn: Yes! Garton’s STD angle was fantastic. I loved his take, but that was Garton. That was original. I don’t believe we should draw lines about what we should or shouldn’t do. If you can earn your take, go for it. That’s something I learned from a panel at World Horror Con 2013. Hank Schwable was talking about how you can do anything in a story as long as you earn it. You have to make it relatively reasonable.

Jeff: I personally am not hot for werewolves, but Wolf Hunt 2 does have a werewolf sex scene that’s played for laughs at the expense of the horrified onlooker. My story “Werewolf Porno” is about the ill-fated efforts to make an adult film that captures a werewolf transformation in the middle of coitus. I’m not really a purist about any monsters (fast zombies, slow zombies…I like ’em both!) and I think you can do the romantic lycanthropes without spoiling it for those of us who want to write them as bloodthirsty savage frightening beasts.

WD: On this topic, I’d have to add that the transformation scenes in the recent Netflix series Hemlock Grove turned out to be (for me, anyway) awesomely gruesome. Not only painful, but gross as the human parts (teeth, etc) literally get popped off every time, and then the entire human skin, and then the emerging wolf eats it all. That got my attention! Still, I thought painful transformations had been overdone, so I made my wolves transform without pain, but with a certain euphoria as their new senses wake up. It’s more magical than horrific, I guess. I tied it into a visualization process that leads to a “DNA realignment” to make it interesting. And, to mention SEX again (because sex sells!), I always make sure to reiterate that for most of my werewolves there is an increase in sexual aggressiveness (as evidenced by a pre-change erection in most cases). My favorite female werewolf character, a sort of “journalist as porn star” by the name of Heather Wilson, was predisposed to sexual misbehavior from the start, but becoming a werewolf increased her wild abandon exponentially. It makes for some hot scenes, and I’ve had good reader reaction in that area, LOL.
 
WD: So how do you all treat your transformations, how do you celebrate or distance yourselves from what's been done, and do you tie in any extra sexual connotations? Ray’s STD idea was great – but what else goes on? Is it just devouring human flesh as sex, or... completely asexual after the initial infection?

Jeff: The werewolf in Wolf Hunt can not only change form whenever he wants, but he can also do partial transformations. If he just wants a werewolf arm, no problem! The shapeshifting is instant, and one character notes that it almost looks like CGI. Unfortunately, he can’t speak when he’s in wolfman form, and he loves to talk, so there’s a lot of pain-free back and forth shifting. I went with a mythos that would be really cheesy if you saw it on a SyFy movie, but the special effects are better in your imagination, and in a book he’s a scary and dangerous character. 

WD: This is exactly what I thought. My werewolves can change form at will and only partially as well, but Lupo didn’t know that until he saw others doing it. I liked giving him a fair amount of ignorance about his condition. Control (or lack of) became one of my favorite themes early on.

Jonathan: As much as I respect and learn from what’s gone before, I get so close to my characters that I don’t have the breathing room to think about what has happened in prior books or movies. So each change is unique to the individual, and each time that individual changes is a little different. For one, there’s definitely a twisted/sexual side to the change, a lust for domination and depraved wish fulfillment. For another, it’s total dread and tied into a fear of punishment. For yet a different character, it’s a preemptive desire to avoid the carnage and (almost equally) the guilt that will result from killing.

WD: I was asking about lines crossed or not crossed. How do you all feel about bestiality in our werewolf books and stories? Some authors revel in the human to canid couplings... I have for the most part stayed on this side of that line, except for some teasing almost-moments.

Ray: I made the transformations painful and ugly because I couldn’t imagine them in any other way. Eddie Quist’s transformation in The Howling was a big inspiration. My werewolves are brutal animals that have very simple needs and desires – food and sex. I made them very aggressive sexually and what they do amounts to pretty brutal rape. I went out of my way to make those scenes as ugly as possible because I did not want to eroticize rape. Conspiracy-world boogeyman and Temple of Set founder Michael Aquino, with whom I was corresponding when I wrote Bestial, criticized that aspect of my werewolves. He and his wife Lilith are great admirers of wolves and he pointed out to me that they do not rape. That’s simply not something wolves do. I reminded him that werewolves are also part human, and humans can be pretty brutal, too. In Bestial, there is a consensual sex scene between two werewolves. The werewolves in both books attack and rape humans, which would qualify as bestiality, but instead of focusing on that, I pay more attention to the horror of the attack. If that makes sense.

WD: Yes, actually I admire real wolves too, and I even included a plea for Defenders of Wildlife, which I help support, in my last book. But like you, I make no real connection between noble wolves and werewolves, who are human-wolf hybrids and therefore combine brutality and savagery that might be characteristic of a pack of rabid wolves.

Jonathan: Hmm...if there are lines I won’t cross, I’m not sure what they are. I guess I’d only know that if I came to it, and I haven’t shied away yet. I will say that a couple of scenes I wrote in Wolf Land were really tough to write. But speaking specifically to the type of couplings discussed in the question... I do have a wolf couple mating, but that seemed natural to the story and the characters. But I don’t anything like that happening between the two species. I’m not saying others shouldn’t explore that, of course – just that it wasn’t part of my book. 

Glenn: For me, yeah, watching Michael Jackson change from the gentle fellow into the beast was scary as hell. He was in pain, too. I gotta check out Hemlock Grove. I actually had the human teeth popping out in my transformation, too. Eating all of it though...that’s pretty cool and crazy. You never want to completely or intentionally copy what’s been done before, but that’s almost impossible. In my first draft of Blood and Rain, there were a lot of sexual moments. I thought what’s scarier than being killed by a beast... oh! being violated first! Well, while that may be true, I decided to cut those scenes from my manuscript. In the final book, I ended up just hinting at it once. Nothing against it, I just didn’t feel like putting them in there by the time I did my last rewrite. And yeah, I just read Wolf’s Gambit. When I read Heather Wilson....I see Heather Thomas! Those were definitely some hot and bothered scenes. I’m looking forward to the next book! I don’t really think about bestiality when I’m working. The monster will do what the monster will do.
  
(WD: Glenn, I always picture my character Heather as a combination of Jenna Jameson and Scarlett Johansson, but Heather Thomas works!)


WD: What POV did you adopt most often? Are your werewolves heroes or antagonists?

Glenn: Mine are mean and nasty. There’s nothing nice going on there. I do like (your) Lupo though, it’s a cool take. I also love that even though he’s good, sometimes the wolf has caused some serious harm to those Nick would never mean to hurt. It always depends on the story and the characters you are creating. I can’t see making a nice werewolf, but I would never say never.

Ray: I have a lot of POVs in both novels, some human, some werewolf, some good, some bad. If a protagonist becomes a werewolf, the fact that he’s a good person in his human state does not automatically make him a good werewolf. He’s a werewolf, which means he’s going to eat and fuck whomever he pleases – and that’s one of the things that I think makes the werewolf interesting. He cannot control himself in his savage werewolf state, which puts everyone he cares about in danger. And then there’s the werewolf hangover – when the person begins to realize what he has done as a monster. Most monsters don’t experience guilt and regret, but the werewolf does. But no matter how sensitive the werewolf’s conscience, it has no control whatsoever when the fangs come out.

Jonathan: Man, this is a great question, and one I hadn’t thought about since early in the writing of Wolf Land. But I wrote equally from the points-of-view of the infected and the regular humans (with a slight lean toward the wolves’ POV). I think quite a few werewolf tales are driven by a lycanthropic POV character, which makes sense since there’s so much potential there. But since my tale was a multiple POV story, I was afforded the ability to write from both sides of the issue and explore all the emotions and psychology involved with the werewolf "outbreak" in my small town.

WD: Any further thoughts on how werewolves differ from other monsters?

Glenn: What makes werewolves different? I mean, look at ours. Even within our chosen beast, they’re all different from one another. Why is that? Characters and people, situations...it all comes into play, but it really can be like that with every monster out there. Especially the human ones!


Jonathan: I think something we’ve touched on that distinguishes werewolves is the horror of the transformation scene and the idea of horror happening right now. You get intimations of it with other monsters (I’m thinking particularly of Brendan Gleeson’s heartbreaking change toward a zombie-like victim of the rage virus in 28 Days Later or Chris Sarandon’s pencil-induced change in Fright Night), but no other monster changes so spectacularly. It really is darkly beautiful.

WD: Any other movies you’ve enjoyed – or hated?
Glenn: Favorites are The HowlingAmerican Werewolf in London, and Silver Bullet. Those I didn't care about? Wolf Cop is pretty stupid, but if you just want foolishness, it’s okay. I was never a fan of Ginger Snaps, either. The Howling 3 is pretty horrendous, as well.  

Ray: Unlike most horror fans I’ve talked to, I enjoyed Joe Johnston’s The Wolfman enormously. It’s not a perfect movie, but it was done with obvious love for the werewolf in general and the classic Lon Chaney movie in particular. There’s a relatively new one on Netflix called Late Stages, which I have not seen yet. I’ve heard good things, but I have to admit, based on the trailer it looks pretty familiar and even tepid.

WD: I don’t think we’re all in agreement about Ginger Snaps, because I liked the new approach and metaphor. I’m a fan of the UK’s Dog Soldiers, which in parts looks a lot like the way some of my books feel, at least to me. I mentioned earlier my continued love of the Universal movies, The Wolf Man and the Abbott and Costello, both with Lon Chaney as Talbot – those helped me shape my early views of my protagonist. I also liked the cheesy 70s ABC Movie of the Week entry Moon of the Wolf – that one’s worth tracking down… it’s very gothic. In the early days of writing my first novel, a syndicated TV show also had some influence on me: Forever Knight was about a cop who was a vampire, and it made me wonder how a werewolf would both benefit and be hurt by trying to work as a cop. I liked Hemlock Grove, the Netflix series based on Brian McGreevy’s novel, even though it was over the top and a bit trashy – all in good fun. The Showtime series Penny Dreadful also had/has good werewolf content, but it took a while to mature and they telegraphed it from the beginning, then springing it almost as a “surprise.” But I still have enjoyed it so far.

Jonathan: As for movies, three I haven’t talked about but absolutely love are Bad Moon (another Eric Red creation), the Ginger Snaps trilogy (particularly the first two), and my favorite werewolf film of all, Dog Soldiers which, for me, was pitch-perfect. In fact, I took some of my character names for Wolf Land from that movie. There’s an incredible fight in there featuring a character named Spoon and a huge wolf, which I sort of (subconsciously) channeled in a couple of my human-fighting-beasts scenes. Basically, you’ve gotta go as crazy as the beast does if you want to have any hope of surviving. I like it when characters do that.

WD: We should end on some reading recommendations. What are everyone’s favorite, most influential werewolf novels?

Jonathan: Firstly, I’d be remiss if I didn't mention W.D.’s work. Nick Lupo is an awesome character, and W.D.’s werewolf stories never fail to entertain and thrill me. Another series I really enjoyed was Gary Brandner’s The Howling books, particularly the first and the third in that series. Dark, filled with dread, and pretty unpredictable. Some others I love are Robert McCammon’s The Wolf’s Hour (which is probably my favorite werewolf novel), Stephen King’s Cycle of the Werewolf, Thomas Tessier’s The Nightwalker, and David Case’s Wolf Tracks. Another one most folks probably don’t know about is Joseph Payne Brennan’s Diary of a Werewolf, which is just fantastic. The Guns of Santa Sangre by Eric Red was also a blast. A couple other werewolf books I loved were Leslie Whitten’s Moon of the Wolf and Charles L. Grant’s The Dark Cry of the Moon.

Ray: Thomas Tessier’s The Nightwalker and Robert McCammon’s The Wolf's Hour are among my favorites. And I’ve enjoyed the Nick Lupo books I’ve read enormously, Bill.

Jeff: It’s a pretty obvious choice to say that my favorite werewolf novel is The Wolf’s Hour by Robert McCammon…but it is. Another favorite is The Frenzy Way by Gregory Lamberson.

WD: First, thanks to all you guys for participating. And special thanks for mentioning my novels… You know I’m a fan of all your work, too. I’ve just started Blood and Rain, by the way, and Wolf Land is on my iPad. Ray’s books are legendary, of course, and helped start me down this road! And I read Jeff starting back in the days of his Andrew Mayhem books.

A few of my all-time werewolf favorites also include (whose doesn’t?) Robert McCammon’s The Wolf’s Hour, which I read back when it was first published and which was large in my mind when I started Wolf’s Trap. That book also gave me the confidence to delve into some actual family history and visit World War II. Charles Grant’s The Dark Cry of the Moon, of course. The Howling remains on my favorites shelf, as does S.P. Somtow’s Moon Dance. Tanya Huff’s Blood Lines series had an impact on me, and so did P.N. Elrod’s Vampire Files (though it’s not about werewolves). Also King and Straub’s The Talisman, which had a great character aptly named Wolf, was an early influence, and later “Some Touch of Pity” from Gary Braunbeck’s classic collection Things Left Behind.

WD: Plug your newest works!

Ray: My newest is A Little Gray Book of Grim Tales from Borderlands Press, which is made up of four of my best short stories from the past ten years. My novel Frankenstorm is still available as an ebook and in paperback from Pinnacle Books. Almost all of my original novels are available from Open Road Media. I'm working on a new novel called Monster Show and I've been writing more short stories in the last couple of years than ever before. I’ve had stories in Volume 4 of the Dark Screams anthology series (with Clive Barker, Ed Gorman, Heather Graham, and Lisa Morton), as well as Shrieks and Shivers from the Horror ZineA Dark PhantastiqueEulogies III, and others. You can keep up with new releases at my website RayGartonOnline.com.

Glenn: Blood and Rain is my new available work. http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Rain-Glenn-Rolfe-ebook/dp/B010D3KPHG My next Samhain release ( a novella called Things We Fear) comes out in March. My website is: http://glennrolfe.com/

Jonathan: My website is www.jonathanjanz.com , I'm on Twitter, Facebook, and Goodreads as Jonathan Janz. My three newest releases are Wolf Land (November 3rd), The Nightmare Girl, and Exorcist Road. My Amazon author page:
http://www.amazon.com/Jonathan-Janz/e/B008IIP7J0/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_6?qid=1432738744&sr=8-6

Jeff: My website is www.JeffStrand.com. If I’m going to plug something, I guess I should say that “Werewolf Porno” is included in my short story collection Gleefully Macabre Tales.

WD: My sixth Nick Lupo horror-thriller, Wolf’s Blind, is out from Samhain December 1. Recently I published a Lupo novella, Wolf’s Deal, exclusively for the Kindle. And the story “Clair de Lune,” written with my friend and frequent collaborator David Benton, is included in the anthology The X-Files: Trust No One, edited by Jonathan Maberry. My websites are www.wdgagliani.comwww.williamdgagliani.com, plus www.facebook.com/wdgagliani and on Twitter I can be found here: @WDGagliani. My Amazon author page: http://www.amazon.com/W.D.-Gagliani/e/B002BMHHPQ/ref=dp_byline_cont_ebooks_1

Thanks… It was great talking to you about a subject we all agree is interesting as hell!

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